Response to Commenter About the Tribulation
I’m writing respond to a commenter on the last blog who voiced some disagreements with some things I wrote. First, I want to say that I absolutely love this type of conversation; two Truth-seekers debating Scripture. Thank you commenter, for taking the time to read the blog and for taking your time to respond.
Commenter obviously has strong convictions about his beliefs, and he took the time to expound on those beliefs, and he deserves my attention. It’s easy to understand commenter's point of view because I believed for 55 years exactly like he does until the Holy Spirit showed me in the Word how conventional teaching is inaccurate and dangerous because it propagates incorrect beliefs that the enemy will use to disguise his plans. That is why the Holy Spirit had me write the book about the truth of the end times. We are nearing the end and God wants his church to be informed. I will address the concerns one at a time.
First assertion: 1. The Clear Promise of the Church’s Escape from the Tribulation
RESPONSE:
Not only is there not a clear promise that the church will escape the Tribulation, there is not even a polluted promise. In fact, The WORD Says the opposite. Here in lies the primary culprit of incorrect teaching of a pre-tribulation rapture for the church. (I say for the church because there is a pretribulation rapture for the 144,000. The Word makes that clear in Revelation 7 and 14, but I’m not going to tackle that monster in this blog. You will have to buy the book.) Commenter states that the Bible promises that the church will escape the Tribulation. That is not true. If you can show me one verse in the Bible that says that, I will remove my book from the market and throw it away. There is not a single verse in the Bible that makes that statement or even implies that. In fact, Jesus stated that we will suffer tribulation. What God promised in the Bible is that the church, body of Christ, would escape the Wrath of God. As I detailed in the blog Will Christians Endure the Wrath of God, the Tribulation and the Wrath of God are not the same event. They are not even the same word. Nowhere in the Bible are the two stated or described to be the same. Any teaching that suggests they are the same event is strictly conjecture and there is no Scriptural evidence to prove they are the same. In fact, as I pointed out in the blog, the words tribulation and wrath have completely different meanings in Greek. I will say it again, the Tribulation is not the same as the Wrath.
Commenter made this incorrect statement.
“The Bible explicitly states that the Church (true believers) will not go through the Tribulation. Instead, believers are promised deliverance before God’s wrath begins”
RESPONSE:
Do you see how the commenter had to change the words or events in his statement to make it sound with the remainder of Scripture? He replaced "wrath" with "tribulation." He had to do so because there is not a single verse in the Bible that says that Christians, believers, or the church, will not have to endure the Tribulation. It ONLY says we will escape the Wrath of God. If God wanted us to believe that we will escape the Tribulation, He would have said, “We are not appointed unto tribulation.” He didn’t say that. He said, “we are not appointed unto wrath.”
Commenter’s Second assertion: “For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.”
RESPONSE:
Do you see the word “tribulation” in the above verse that commenter provided? No. And you won’t find a similar verse using the word “tribulation.” Not only did commenter change a word in the verse, but he changed the main word. The topic of the sentence is the wrath and commenter changed it to tribulation to make his point. You cannot refute a statement if you have to change the evidence. In law enforcement, we call that evidence tampering. God knows better than us what words to use. He wrote the Bible and he did not need us to proofread it or change any words that we think He got wrong. The Bible states we will escape God’s wrath only. They are not the same. Tribulation is tribulation and wrath is wrath. If the Tribulation was the Wrath of God, then the Bible would call the entire event, the Wrath of God, not the Tribulation some places and the Wrath of God in other places; two different words with two different meanings.
Commenter stated this:
• The argument above attempts to distinguish between “Tribulation” and “Wrath” by saying the Trumpet Judgments are not wrath. However, Revelation 6:16-17 explicitly states that God’s wrath begins early in the Tribulation:
Revelation 6:16-17 (KJV)
“And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?”
• This occurs after the opening of the sixth seal—which is well before the Trumpet and Bowl judgments.
• If God’s wrath starts here, and 1 Thessalonians 5:9 says we are not appointed to wrath, then believers must be removed before this event.
And here is where I really wish commenter would read my book so that he can see how Scripture has been twisted by man’s conjecture to where there is a complete misunderstanding of the “seals.”
As I Scripturally proved in the book Wrong All Along: Revelation Revisited, (shameless plug), there are no “seal judgements.” Commenter believes that there are SEAL Judgements in the future. There is not. Jesus was given the book by God so that it could be opened and the revelation given to John to record. The book was opened and the seals were broken. It is a past event. It will not happen again. It was accomplished in John's lifetime. John was not carried into the future, he was carried to heaven in the Spirit where he was given visions of the future.
Was Daniel carried into the future when he received the visions of the future? No. Was Paul carried to the future when he received visions of the future? No, he was not. Neither was John carried to the future when he received the visions. Opening the scroll will never happen again. Events that God wanted to expose John to were revealed when the seals were broken, and that is why the seals were broken. They are not a future catalyst for anything. The seals were broken and John was told to “come and see.” He did. And he wrote about what he saw when the seals were broken. There are no more seals to be broken ever again. The book that God gave to Jesus in Revelation 5 when John was crying because he wanted to know what was in the book, Jesus broke the seals of that book, and its contents were revealed to John.
Revelation is not a chronological unfolding of the events of the end times. It is multiple visions and descriptions of many of the same events. For instance, John wrote about the Rapture in chapters 11, 14, and 15. The events John wrote about in chapter 19 will happen over the course of more than a thousand years. In Revelation 21, John wrote about the same event twice using two different perspectives. The book of Revelation is pieced together like the book of Daniel. They both describe many of the same events multiple times in different ways because neither Daniel nor John was writing on their own volition. They wrote what the Holy Spirit instructed them to write and they did not always understand it themselves. They wrote what they saw and heard and sometimes, many times in fact, neither knew what he was seeing or hearing. I'll give you another example. Let's look at Revelation 13.
Revelation 13:1 Then I stood on the sand of the sea. And I saw a beast rising up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and on his horns ten crowns, and on his heads a blasphemous name.
John opened this passage with, "THEN I stood on the sand of the sea. And I saw a beast rising..." John used the word "then" because he was stating he had another vision. John had the visions when he was exiled to the island of Patmos. John was not saying that he personally will be present to see the the beast rising, he would have to be reincarnated, nor was he saying he was carried to the future where he saw the beast rising. John was merely stating he was on the beach when he received the vision of the beast rising. The exact same situation applies to Revelation 5 when Jesus opened the book, broke the seals, and gave the revelation to John. The opening of the seals revealed the entirety of the end of the age.
The seals are NOT judgements in themselves. If they are, can you provide information about the calamities or wrath associated with the opening of the first, fifth, and seventh seals? There are none, just revelation. The proliferation of the incorrect doctrine that the seals are “judgements” is just another culprit for the misunderstanding of Revelation. Revelation 6:16-17 is the same event that John wrote about in Revelation 16.
Let me expound. When the fifth seal was opened (an event recorded in Revelation 6), John was shown the martyrs that will be killed during the Tribulation and they were told to rest and wait for their justice until the Tribulation is complete.
Let's look at this together to show you what I mean. Compare the following passages.
Revelation 6:9-11; 9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both [the number of] their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they [were], was completed.
Revelation 7:13-15; 13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?" 14 And I said to him, "Sir, you know." So he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 "Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them.
Revelation 14:12-13; 12 Here is the patience of the saints; here [are] those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. 13 Then I heard a voice from heaven saying to me, "Write: 'Blessed [are] the dead who die in the Lord from now on.' " "Yes," says the Spirit, "that they may rest from their labors, and their works follow them."
Do you remember that game, Same or Not the Same, where you had to look at things and determine if they were alike? Let's play that game with the above verses. Same or not the same period in time? Same or not the same participants?
If you said "Same" to both of these questions, you are right.
Let's look at the first passage. When the fifth seal was broken, John saw Tribulation saints before the God asking how long it would be before He would avenge them, or in other words, get revenge for them on those that martyred them, the ones still living on earth. Stop right here and ask yourself this question? What would the revenge be on those living on earth if they are already going through the Wrath of God? Isn't the Wrath of God by definition His revenge? Exactly. This is another example of why the Tribulation cannot be the Wrath. When will they cease "being" martyred? (I know that sounds weird.) At the end of the Tribulation. And what are they told? To wait a little longer until the total number of martyrs is complete. When will there be no more Christians martyred? After the Tribulation is over and the church is raptured.
Let's look at the next passage. The angel said that the ones wearing the white robes are the ones that "are coming" out of the great Tribulation. Coming out is the correct translation from the original Greek word; it is an active and continuous verb. If they are Tribulation saints "coming out", then it is ongoing just like we read in the previous passage at the breaking of the fifth seal. They are Tribulation saints wearing white robes. Same time frame, same people.
Now let's look at the third passage. This passage follows the three angels that herald the warnings during the Tribulation. It is said of those going through the Tribulation, they are blessed if they die in the Lord and they will rest from their labors. These are believers that are martyred during the Tribulation. Just like in the first passage about the fifth seal, they are told to rest a little longer until the Tribulation is complete.
Please tell me you see that. All three passages talk about the ONGOING Tribulation and the martyrs going to heaven, waiting and resting until the culmination of the Tribulation. This is three separate passages that all describe the exact same event and scenario. This is why I stated that Revelation is not a chronological unfolding. It is multiple visions, multiple descriptions, of many of the same events. I bet you never put all those three together before, but now you're scratching your head saying, "Wow! I can't believe I never noticed that."
Everything that was revealed with the breaking of the first five seals will occur PRIOR to the Wrath of God. They will occur DURING the Tribulation. The Seven Trumpet Judgements are the Tribulation and the seventh trumpet is the last trumpet. We will be raptured at the last trumpet. The opening of the sixth seal revealed what will occur DURING the Wrath of God and not during the Tribulation. The opening of the seventh seal revealed what will occur after the Wrath culminates and Jesus returns. I know how Revelation 8 starts and it gives the impression that the breaking of the seventh seal is the catalyst for the beginning of the Trumpet Judgements, but if you look at the entirety of Revelation in context, it describes something totally different. (Get the book for a deeper, more complete explanation.) Conventional teaching suggests that the innumerable number of martyrs described in the breaking of the fifth seal will be martyred in the first 3 ½ years of a 7-year tribulation. Commenter stated that this will happen "early" in the Tribulation. In fact, according to pre-tribulation enthusiasts, the Antichrist does not reveal himself until midway through a 7-year tribulation. If that is the case, who is killing all the Christians that commenter suggests are killed "early" in a seven-year tribulation? Conventional teaching also suggests that the first 3 ½ years is a time of peace. Their own teaching suggests a contradiction.
The first five seals were opened and to John it was revealed everything that will happen before the Rapture. The end of Revelation chapter 11 describes the Rapture at the conclusion of the Tribulation. It is the same heavenly event of Revelation chapter 15 that describes the party in heaven following the Rapture, just before the Bowls of Wrath are about to be poured out. Let's look at the Word.
Revelation 11:15-19; 15 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of this world have become [the kingdoms] of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!" 16 And the twenty-four elders who sat before God on their thrones fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17 saying: "We give You thanks, O Lord God Almighty, The One who is and who was and who is to come, Because You have taken Your great power and reigned. 18 The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come, And the time of the dead, that they should be judged, And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, And those who fear Your name, small and great, And should destroy those who destroy the earth." 19 Then the temple of God was opened in heaven, and the ark of His covenant was seen in His temple. And there were lightnings, noises, thunderings, an earthquake, and great hail.
Revelation 15:5-8; 5 After these things I looked, and behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened. 6 And out of the temple came the seven angels having the seven plagues, clothed in pure bright linen, and having their chests girded with golden bands. 7 Then one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden bowls full of the wrath of God who lives forever and ever. 8 The temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God and from His power, and no one was able to enter the temple till the seven plagues of the seven angels were completed.
The above two passages, same or not the same? You guessed it, the SAME. Revelation 15 is the scene that follows the Rapture described in Revelation 11. Both passages detail the immediacy following the LAST TRUMPET OF THE TRUMPET JUDGEMENTS. In the top passage, the seventh angel sounded. What comes next AFTER THE SEVENTH ANGEL SOUNDED? Verse 18 says "YOUR WRATH HAS COME." It does not get more clear than that. The 7th trumpet was blown and then the wrath came. That is what the Word says, not what Alex says without Scriptural evidence. The Trumpet Judgements are the Tribulation and the Tribulation culminates at the blowing of the 7th trumpet. This is iron-clad evidence that the Tribulation and the Wrath of God are two different events. One is completed before the other begins. The 7th trumpet is the last trumpet. At the blowing of the last trumpet, we will be raptured and then the wrath will come. There is absolutely no way this can be refuted. In Revelation 11, the temple of God was opened and the ark of His covenant was seen. In the Revelation 15, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony was opened. That is the same thing. How does John know. He saw it; it was seen. Different passages, same event.
Would you like further proof? Let's look at Revelation 11:18 a little closer.
Rev 11:18 The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come, And the time of the dead, that they should be judged, And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, And those who fear Your name, small and great, And should destroy those who destroy the earth."
This verse has it all! In this one verse that details the immediacy following the 7th trumpet, the last trumpet, glory is given to Jesus and it is declared that NOW His wrath has come and it describes what that means. The dead will be judged. The Greek word used here is nekros. It can mean dead (like regular dead) no longer breathing. Or it can mean spiritually dead; destitute of a life that recognizes and is devoted to God, because given up to trespasses and sins. Who would these people be? Buckle your seatbelt. We are going for a ride.
It is everyone that just saw their last chance to escape God's wrath, wrath that verse 18 above states will destroy those that destroy the earth, come in the clouds and call us up to meet Him in the air at the blowing of the 7th trumpet, the last trumpet when it is promised that at the beginning of that wrath, the servants and prophets and saints and all those who fear His name, which just happens to describe ALL Christians, will receive reward, when the dead are left on earth to be judged; Judged as in the "hour of temptation" that John wrote about in Revelation 3:10 where to the believers it was promised that if they persevered to the END, their reward would be escape from peirasmos or "hour of trial or temptation", which means will be judged, and here we see that at the 7th trumpet, when the wrath is about to begin, according to the above passage, Jesus is going to reward His servants also according to the timing of verse 18 above; when Paul said in 1 Thessalonians 5, that at the LAST TRUMPET we would be called up to meet the Lord in the air, and at that time we will receive our glorified bodies which will occur at the end of the age defined by Jesus in Matthew 24 when he said immediately after the tribulation of those days, He would send his angel to gather the elect that He said would endure the greatest tribulation of all times and then they would be called up to meet Him in the clouds at the sound of a great trumpet, and He finished by stating these things will happen and then the END will come, that END being the end of the church age that will end at the rapture of the church, the church no longer being present so it makes sense that this will be the end of the church age, and since we now know that the Seven Bowls of Wrath will be poured out, according to what we just learned in verse 18 that states that right after the blowing of the seventh trumpet, will include destroying those that destroy the earth, wrath that according to verse 18 will occur after the last trumpet because the church was just raptured just before the 7 bowls of Wrath that are going to be poured out on all the spiritually dead in Christ according to Revelation 14 and 16, who just missed the last chance at escaping the wrath that John said at the end of Revelation 15, will begin immediately after God shuts the door to the temple and, will not allow anyone to enter until the wrath is complete and because there will be no salvation occurring on earth anymore because the church will be raptured, and since there are no longer believers on earth because the entire church was just raptured, then God can pour out His wrath on the entire earth and not be breaking His own promise in 1Thessalonians 5 that says that Christians are not appointed unto wrath, not including tribulation because this will happen, according to Jesus after the tribulation of those days, days that will culminate with the sound of a great trumpet calling us, the entire body of Christ, into the air to meet Him in the clouds just before the Wrath of God begins.
Mic DROP!
I am not trying to make fun of anyone. I did that mostly out of fun. However, do you see how it all ties together? I did that to show you how it all ties together. Paul, John, and Jesus all said the exact same thing. You don't even have to connect the dots. I connected them for you. Now, please, if you can, show me one verse that contradicts ANYTHING that I just said. It fits perfectly, like a beautiful word puzzle. I put all that together for you, using only Bible verses, no conjecture, without changing ANY words in the verses. How can anyone look intently into the evidence I just laid out to you with the help of the Author, the Holy Spirit, and not agree with what I said? It fits perfectly, and look how many verses I tied together; multiple authors spread over decades and no presumptions or Scriptural contradictions.
According to the second passage, which I just showed you is the same event as the first passage, and the first passage stated that after the seventh and last trumpet blast the wrath would come, the second passage says THEN THE BOWLS OF WRATH WERE GIVEN TO THE SEVEN ANGELS TO BE POURED OUT ON EARTH. Sequentially, these two passages put the last trumpet before the wrath; two separate events in print in His Word. There is no possible way to read these passages and still make the claim that the Tribulation is the same as the Wrath of God. The last trumpet is blown and THEN the Wrath comes according to Revelation 11. That is not conjecture or verse manipulation.
The sixth seal was opened and to John was revealed events associated with God’s wrath after the Rapture. That is why the breaking of the 6th seal revealed God’s wrath being poured out. Commenter points this out in Revelation 6. Let’s compare it to Revelation 16 which is the chapter that goes into greater detail about the Wrath of God. It is not a repeat of similar events that John saw when the seals were broken. He saw the events and recorded what he saw in Revelation 6. He then wrote about the same events in Revelation 16. It is two descriptions of the same event.
Revelation 6:12-17; 12 I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood. 13 And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind. 14 Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place. 15 And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, 16 and said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 "For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?"
Does that sound like peace? But conventional pre-tribulation doctrine suggests this will occur during a time of peace early in the Tribulation. John said, "I looked when He opened the sixth seal." Where was John when this happened? He was in the Spirit in heaven. He was carried to heaven in his own day, not to heaven in the future. He said "I saw when the seal was opened." John did not say, "When the seal is opened, this will happen." But that is what conventional teaching and Hollywood adamantly proclaim. Again, you have to twist the words of the Word to fit that narrative. Now look at Revelation 16.
Revelation 16:16-21; 16 And they gathered them together to the place called in Hebrew, Armageddon. 17 Then the seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and a loud voice came out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, "It is done!" 18 And there were noises and thunderings and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such a mighty and great earthquake as had not occurred since men were on the earth. 19 Now the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell. And great Babylon was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of His wrath. 20 Then every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. 21 And great hail from heaven fell upon men, [each hailstone] about the weight of a talent. Men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail, since that plague was exceedingly great.
This is the same event described in two different places. This is not two separate great earthquakes, it is only one talked about in two separate passages. How many times can every island and mountain be removed after a great earthquake? Only once. The great earthquake described in Revelation 6 is the SAME earthquake of Revelation 16. The stars falling from the sky in Revelation 6 is most likely nuclear war and that is why Revelation 16 describes noises and thunderings and lightenings. Look more intently at Revelation 6:13.
Revelation 6:12-13; 12 I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood. 13 And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind.
Commenter said this is an early Tribulation event. I suggest, according to the entirety of Scripture, that is is an end of Tribulation event that will extend into the the Wrath of God. Let's look at what Jesus said in Matthew 24.
Matthew 24:29-31; 29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 "Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 "And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
How can you look at those two passages and not be convinced that they are the same event? In both passages, the sun was darkened and the moon did not give its light (it was turned blood red not giving its normal light.) AND in both passages, the stars of heaven fell to earth. These two passages are the same event! And according to Jesus' words in Matthew, when will this same event occur? He said, word for word, immediately after the tribulation of those days. The events of Revelation 6 that were revealed to John at the breaking of the sixth seal, are NOT an early tribulation event as commenter promulgated. I don't see a way you can read these passages word for word next to each other, without changing anything, and still believe that. Jesus said that this event will happen AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS.
What do we see when we look at images of atomic or nuclear bombs? It looks like the sky is being rolled up like a scroll. That is war, not peace. Revelation 6, when describing the events revealed at the opening of the 6th seal, describes a time of chaos. But pre-tribulation rapture enthusiasts claim it is a time of peace in the first half of an incorrect seven-year tribulation assumption. The Tribulation is ONLY 3 ½ years. John wrote about the Tribulation, Daniel did not. Daniel did write about things that will happen during the Tribulation, but never used the word tribulation. John said the Tribulation is a time, times, and half a time. He also said it was 42 months and also 1260 days, not 84 months or 2520 days. Daniel wrote about the destruction and persecution of Israel and the Jews and their persecutors, the beasts.
The Tribulation does not begin UNTIL the first trumpet of the Seven Trumpet Judgements is blown. That is why the angels in Revelation 7 were told to withhold the calamities being brought on earth before the trumpets were to be blown. What John wrote about in the first part of Revelation 7, the sealing of the 144,000, will happen before the chaos of the Tribulation begins. The calamities start with the trumpets, not the breaking of any seals.
Revelation 7:1-4; 1 After these things I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, on the sea, or on any tree. 2 Then I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God. And he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, 3 saying, "Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads." 4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred [and] forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel [were] sealed:
Now compare these four angels to the first four trumpet judgements.
Revelation 8:7-12; 7 The first angel sounded: And hail and fire followed, mingled with blood, and they were thrown to the earth. And a third of the trees were burned up, and all green grass was burned up. 8 Then the second angel sounded: And [something] like a great mountain burning with fire was thrown into the sea, and a third of the sea became blood. 9 And a third of the living creatures in the sea died, and a third of the ships were destroyed. 10 Then the third angel sounded: And a great star fell from heaven, burning like a torch, and it fell on a third of the rivers and on the springs of water. 11 The name of the star is Wormwood. A third of the waters became wormwood, and many men died from the water, because it was made bitter. 12 Then the fourth angel sounded: And a third of the sun was struck, a third of the moon, and a third of the stars, so that a third of them were darkened. A third of the day did not shine, and likewise the night.
Please tell me you see it! In Revelation 7, John recorded that four angels were told to wait before the calamities are released. Then, in chapter 8, the calamities begin WITH THE BLOWING OF THE TRUMPETS. In chapter 7, the four angels are told not to harm the earth, sea, and trees. Then in chapter 8, at the blowing of the first four trumpets, the earth, sea, and trees are harmed. This is another example of how you can completely miss the truth if you believe the events will unfold chronologically the way they are recorded in Revelation. Commenter insists that the events recorded in Revelation 6 will occur early in the Tribulation. But John recorded in chapter 7 that the angels, the same angels of chapter 8 blowing the trumpets, were ordered NOT to unleash chaos until after the 144,000 are sealed. And if you fast forward to Revelation 14, you find the same 144,000 in heaven before the throne singing the song of first fruits. And when will that scene take place? Does it happen before or after the Tribulation? It happens before the Tribulation!
Revelation 14:1-4; 1 Then I looked, and behold, a Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred [and] forty-four thousand, having His Father's name written on their foreheads. 2 And I heard a voice from heaven, like the voice of many waters, and like the voice of loud thunder. And I heard the sound of harpists playing their harps. 3 They sang as it were a new song before the throne, before the four living creatures, and the elders; and no one could learn that song except the hundred [and] forty-four thousand who were redeemed from the earth. 4 These are the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These were redeemed from [among] men, [being] firstfruits to God and to the Lamb.
How do we know that this scene will take place before the Tribulation? Because the four angels of chapter 7, the same first four trumpet angels of chapter 8, were ordered not to unleash calamity until the 144,00 first fruits were sealed and saved. Then we see the same 144,000 in heaven in chapter 14 FOLLOWED BY three more angels heralding encouragement and warnings. And when does it say they will do that? When the Tribulation ensues. It is all in there. You just have to look at it with unbiased eyes.
The events of chapter 8 have to come before the events associated with the sixth seal recorded in chapter 6. Do you think God will destroy the earth and THEN say "Don't destroy the earth yet?' How does that even make sense? It does not.
There are no “Seal Judgements.” God gave the scroll or book to Jesus in Revelation 5. Jesus broke each of the seals and John received the revelation of the entirety of the scroll. What was revealed in the scroll was the rise of the Antichrist, the first seal, then the breaking of the next four seals revealed what will happen during the Tribulation. The breaking of the sixth seal revealed what will happen during the Wrath of God. And the breaking of the seventh seal revealed what will happen upon Christ’s return, the millennial reign, and advancement into eternity.
Commenter used this verse in his assertion also:
“Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.”
• The phrase “keep thee from” in Greek is ek tereo, meaning “to completely remove out of.”
• This verse is a direct promise to believers that they will not experience the Tribulation.
Again, commenter is making the assertion that two words that are not the same are the same. Commenter changed the word in the actual verse to a totally different word in his non-scriptural statement. He again has to manipulate the Scripture to make his statement a true statement. Commenter is asserting that the "hour of temptation" is the Tribulation. They are not the same and I will show you. He gave you the Greek word tereo, and he used it correctly in context. But he incorrectly made the assertion that the “hour of temptation” is the Tribulation. Commenter changed the words used in the verse to his interpretation of what he thinks the hour of temptation means instead of giving us the Greek word for temptation. So, let’s look at those two words in Greek.
- Temptation or Trial – peirasmos – in context is defined this way - rebellion against God, by which his power and justice are, as it were, put to the proof and challenged to show themselves.
- Tribulation – The Greek word for tribulation used in Revelation is thlipsis, and it means in context – pressing, pressure, oppression, affliction, distress, straits. Does that sound anything like the definition of temptation? No, it does not. In fact, the word “temptation” is used only once in Revelation. So that we keep things in context, I want to point out that when John wrote Revelation, there were no chapters and verses. He just wrote. The verse that commenter used and made the assertion that “ the hour of temptation” is the same as the Tribulation is in Revelation chapter 3. So, let’s back up to Revelation chapters 1 and 2. John used the word thlipsis for “tribulation” four times before chapter 3 and once afterward. The word tribulation is used in Revelation 1:9, 2:9, 2:10, 2:22, and 7:14. So, four times before using the word peirasmos for “temptation” John used the word thlipsis or “tribulation.” Why didn’t John just use the word thlipsis for “tribulation” again in chapter 3 instead of changing it to peirasmos or “temptation?” Because John was not referring to the Tribulation and making the claim that they are the same cannot be supported by the Scriptures. Again, the argument commenter is making requires him to change the actual words of the Bible, a manipulation of the Scriptures. Why would John use the word “tribulation” immediately before using the word “temptation” and use the word "tribulation” after using the word “temptation” if he was referring to the same event? He would not because they are not his words. These are the words of the Holy Spirit and He gave us His words so that we have revelation, not confusion. If the Holy Spirit was intending for readers to believe He was referring to the Tribulation in chapter 3, he would have used the same word for tribulation that He used in chapters 1 and 2. The hour of temptation is not the Tribulation. It can only be said as such with man’s incorrect conjecture and with changing the words. In the entirety of Revelation, John used both “wrath” and “tribulation” separately because they are separate, as I just demonstrated. They are two different words not to be used interchangeably. Any teaching otherwise is only man’s conjecture and not Scripturally supported. The word for trial or temptation is only used once in Revelation. It means trial, not Tribulation. Will any believers be subject to trial? No, thanks to Jesus we are already innocent. We will not be judged ever again. The words peirasmos and thlipsis are not interchangeable as commenter suggested. Let's quickly breakdown the verse commenter gave us.
Revelation 3:10 "Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.
What is the promise given in verse 10? The promise is that for those that keep God's command to persevere, He will keep them from TRIAL not TRIBULATION. What are they to persevere from to receive the reward of being kept from the hour of temptation? From tribulation! If it is not tribulation, then what is it? Why would God say if you keep His command to persevere in tribulation, He will keep you from tribulation? That doesn't make sense. You have to go through tribulation to have the opportunity to persevere. Again, this is the danger in changing God's words to fit your own beliefs instead of just accepting His words. He knew what He needed to say and He said it perfectly using the exact words He wanted us to hear. He is way smarter than us. So why do people think it is ok to change God's words?
Commenter’s next point: 2. The “Days of Noah and Lot” Do Not Prove a Post-Tribulation Rapture
The argument above uses Luke 17:26-30 to say that believers remain in the Tribulation just like Noah and Lot were in their environments until removed. However, this interpretation overlooks key differences:
1. Noah entered the ark before the flood came.
• Genesis 7:1 (KJV): “And the LORD said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation.”
• Noah was separated from judgment before it fell—just as the Church will be removed before the Tribulation.
RESPONSE:
Commenter just called "judgement" tribulation. Judgement is conviction. Tribulation is affliction or oppression; not the same.
Noah escaped the wrath of the flood. But he did not escape the tribulation of his day; days so wicked that God had to destroy the earth and start over with righteous Noah.
2. Commenter's next assertion: Lot left Sodom before judgment fell.
• Genesis 19:22 (KJV): “Haste thee, escape thither; for I cannot do anything till thou be come thither.”
• This explicitly shows that judgment could not begin until Lot was gone. Likewise, God’s wrath in the Tribulation cannot begin until the Church is removed.
RESPONSE:
Again, commenter makes the assumption that tribulation and wrath are the same , but he uses the word judgement to mean both tribulation and wrath. Commenter said that the angels would not destroy Sodom until Lot was gone. That is correct. But destroying Sodom was not an act of tribulation, it was an act of wrath. Sodom was so evil, God destroyed it with His Wrath. But Lot had to endure the tribulation of living in Sodom where he was tormented because of the evil. But don't take my word for it, let's see what The WORD Says:
2 Peter 2:4-11; 4 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast [them] down to hell and delivered [them] into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; 5 and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, [one of] eight [people], a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly; 6 and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned [them] to destruction, making [them] an example to those who afterward would live ungodly; 7 and delivered righteous Lot, [who was] oppressed by the filthy conduct of the wicked 8 (for that righteous man, dwelling among them, tormented [his] righteous soul from day to day by seeing and hearing [their] lawless deeds)-- 9 [then] the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations and to reserve the unjust under punishment for the day of judgment, 10 and especially those who walk according to the flesh in the lust of uncleanness and despise authority. [They are] presumptuous, self-willed. They are not afraid to speak evil of dignitaries, 11 whereas angels, who are greater in power and might, do not bring a reviling accusation against them before the Lord.
Look at verse 9 above. It says that the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations. The Greek word for temptations in this verse is peirasmos. Does that look familiar? It should. It is the EXACT word used in Revelation 3:10, the hour of temptation, that commenter removed and replaced with tribulation. Peter and John, two different Holy Spirit inspired writers of God's word both used the same Greek word to describe what will happen to those that persevere, the godly. They both said that those that persevere would escape peirasmos or temptation, not tribulation, the word that commenter replaced temptation with. The hour of temptation, trial, is God's wrath and will only come on the ungodly,
Commenter made the claim that Noah and Lot were delivered from tribulation. Does the Bible agree with that statement? No, it does not. It states the opposite. Look at the mental torture that Peter said Lot had to endure. It says Lot was oppressed by the filth around him and he was tormented day after day. Commenter stated that neither Noah nor Lot endured tribulation because they escaped the annihilation of the wrath. Wrath is not tribulation, just like tribulation is not temptation. You can't just take words out of God's word and replace them with whatever word you want. These are God's words, not man's. Let's look at the words for oppressed and tormented.
The Greek word for oppressed is kataponeō. It means to tire down with toils or to afflict or oppress with evil. It comes from the root word ponos. It means great trouble, intense desire, great pain.
The Greek word for tormented is basanizō. It means to torture, to vex with grievous pains; to be harassed or distressed.
What do you think? If Peter said they had to endure the filth around them and used very strong words to describe their mental torment, does it sound like Noah or Lot escaped tribulation? No it does not. According to the Word, they both suffered BEFORE the wrath was poured out.
Commenter's next assertion: 3. Jesus compares the Second Coming to Noah and Lot, not the Rapture.
• However, Jesus is describing the final judgment at His Second Coming, when the wicked are taken away in judgment.
RESPONSE:
I provided Scriptures, word for word, that state Noah and Lot endured tribulation and THEN escaped the wrath. I stated that the church, just like Noah and Lot, will endure tribulation but escape the wrath. Noah and Lot, according to the Bible, were tormented; in tribulation. Then God made them safe, and THEN brought the wrath. This is exactly the sequence that I am professing. The church, us, will be subject to tribulation, torment, oppression. Then, just like God did for Noah and Lot, God will make us safe and then rain down the wrath. That is the analogy I made and it perfectly fits in the context that I presented it.
Let's go a bit further and dissect the verses commenter referred to as describing the Second Coming.
Matthew 24:37-41; 37 "But as the days of Noah [were], so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 38 "For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 "and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 40 "Then two [men] will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. 41 "Two [women will be] grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left.
Commenter's comments on the above verses.
• Matthew 24:39 (KJV): “And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.”
• The ones “taken” in this passage are not raptured believers but the wicked taken in judgment, just as in Noah’s day.
RESPONSE:
This is not the Second coming, it is the Rapture. What happed before the wrath of Noah's and Lot's day, they were moved to safety and the others were left behind. What happened to the others? They were left behind to endure the wrath. The above Scriptures specifically state, "...in the days BEFORE the flood." I just demonstrated how Peter described mental torment and affliction for righteous Noah and Lot before the wrath came. And here we read, "before the flood." Noah was said to be righteous. He was present before the wrath. Just like Noah, the righteous church will be present, just before the wrath. Then, like Noah, the righteous, the church, will be carried to safety and then the wrath will come. One will be taken and the other left behind. That is what Jesus said. The righteous will be taken away from a condemned world, and unbelievers will be left behind to be destroyed with the world, just like the days of Noah.
I want to speak directly to commenter here. This passage that you offered proves my point and refutes yours. Hear me out. Do we agree that verses 37-38 above are before the wrath? That would make Noah present just before the wrath. Was Noah placed in the ark before or after the flood? Before. So Noah was essentially taken out of the world, right? The world was destroyed and he was not. That means he was removed from the world that was destroyed. Jesus said just like that will be the coming of the Son of Man. That would mean that the righteous will be present just before the wrath. Then, we will be made safe from the destruction that will be poured out in the wrath on the world. We, like Noah, will be removed from the destruction coming on the earth. We are the ones that are taken, not the bad guys. Both Noah and Lot were removed from the places that the wrath was poured out on. They were not the ones left behind. The ones that perished in the wrath were destroyed with the places that were destroyed. Jesus said it will be just like that. If it is just like that, then Jesus was speaking about the Rapture, not the Second Coming. In the Second Coming, we RETURN with Jesus to the place that is going to be destroyed after we are removed.
Let's take it a step further. What happened when Noah was in the safety of the ark? The world was being destroyed by God's wrath. Then what happened? AFTER the world was destroyed, Noah came back to earth, metaphorically speaking, after the water receded and started a new world. I hope you are tracking with me. Hang in there, I'm going somewhere with this. I am proclaiming, that just like Noah, we are enduring tribulation with the filth surrounding us. Things are getting really bad. Things will get worse as the Tribulation begins and will continue to get worse. Look at the Trumpet Judgements. They get progressively worse as the trumpets are blown. Noah went through tribulation, so will we. Until what? Until the Rapture when we will be carried away to safety, just like Noah. AFTER, we are carried away from this world in the Rapture, the wrath will come. While we are safe as the wrath is being poured out, the world will be enduring the Wrath of God. AFTER the destruction is complete, what happens? After the 7th bowl of wrath is poured out, the destruction completed, just like Noah, we will return to earth and start a new world just like Noah did. The beast and false prophet will be thrown into the Lake of Fire, Satan and his angels will be bound for a thousand years, and Jesus will rule the world from Jerusalem. That is exactly what happened to Noah and Jesus said it will be for us, the exact same way. That is what the Scriptures say. Commenter said it is the wicked that will be taken away, not the believers. But that is not what happened in Noah's day. The ones left behind died with the destruction of the world and then the righteous started over with a recently destroyed world. But you are saying that the righteous will be here when the wrath comes and the wicked will be carried off. That contradicts Jesus' words. The wicked were not carried anywhere. They died in the wrath with the world. We cannot be here when the wrath is poured out according to Scripture. That passage is not describing the Second Coming, it is describing the Rapture. And if that is not evidence enough for you, consider the placement of the very verse you are using incorrectly. Matthew 24:39, just EIGHT VERSES AFTER JESUS DESCRIBED THE RASPTURE OF THE CHURCH. Let's look at these verses to see what Jesus said in the eight verses between the Rapture and what you claim transitions into the Second Coming.
Matthew 24:32-39; 32 "Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer [is] near. 33 "So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near--at the doors! 34 "Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place. 35 "Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away. 36 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only. 37 "But as the days of Noah [were], so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 38 "For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 "and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.
From verses 32-36, Jesus is still talking about the Rapture. He said, all the things He just talked about that will occur during the Great Tribulation will be the like a branch about to bud. Jesus had just described things that will be seen right before the Rapture, not the Second Coming. He described a bunch of things that He stated would culminate at the end, concluded by the Son of Man coming on the clouds, with the great trumpet, us meeting Him where the eagles gather. He said the generation that sees all those things, that generation will not pass away. Then He said, nobody knows the day or hour of but only God. Then He says, just like in the days of Noah. Please show me where Jesus changed topics from the Rapture to the Second Coming in those verses. Jesus was still talking about the Rapture.
Both Noah and Lot escaped God’s wrath on earth. They did not escape the tribulation of their time. They had to endure it. With the wrath, the flood and the fire, came destruction and devastation. That is not tribulation, no matter how hard you try to stretch the word tribulation. Again, wrath and tribulation are not the same. Let’s look at this one from the other side. What tribulation did Noah or Lot escape from? NONE! They ONLY escaped wrath. That is why Jesus said, “…as in the days of Noah and Lot…”. They both endured the surrounding tribulation, but they were removed and saved from God’s wrath. Jesus said it will be the same for the church.
Let’s look at the word “wrath” in the passage that commenter provided. It is orgē. It means movement or agitation of the soul, impulse, desire, any violent emotion, but especially anger.
Let’s compare it to tribulation. Thlipsis, and it means in context – pressing, pressure, oppression, affliction, distress, straits.
Are those two words the same? Not even close. Wrath is poured out from a source from a deep seated anger. Tribulation is enduring oppression or conflict or affliction and does not require wrath.
Commenter's next point: 3. The Rapture is a Distinct Event from the Second Coming. The argument above assumes one return of Christ. However, Scripture clearly shows the Rapture and the Second Coming are separate events.
RESPONSE:
Commenter is absolutely correct in saying that the Rapture is separate from the Second Coming of Christ. But he incorrectly makes the assumption that because I stated that the Rapture follows the Tribulation that I eliminated the Second Coming. That is not the case. Jesus will return in the clouds, as the Scriptures declare ,and we will be called up to meet Him in the air. That is the Rapture, and it follows the Tribulation. After the Rapture, God will pour out the Seven Bowls of Wrath (not the Seven Bowls of Tribulation). After the seventh bowl is poured out, like we read above in Revelation 16, then Christ will return for the Second Coming. The Second Coming is described in Revelation 19:11-16.
Revelation 19:11-16; 11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him [was] called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes [were] like a flame of fire, and on His head [were] many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He [was] clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And He has on [His] robe and on His thigh a name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.
Now compare that to the Rapture.
1 Thessalonians 4:15-18; 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive [and] remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
Commenter and I both agree that these are separate events. In the Rapture, we will be caught up to meet Jesus in the clouds. He does not come to earth. At the Second Coming of Christ after the Wrath of God is poured out on the earth, we will return with Christ and He will place His feet on the Mount of Olives and it will split in two. But where commenter and I disagree is the timing of the Rapture. I purport that first comes the Tribulation consisting of the 7 Trumpet Judgements, then the Rapture, then the Wrath of God (which as the name implies is the 7 Bowls of Wrath), and then the Second Coming of Christ.
Commenter suggests it happens in this order. The Rapture, then the Tribulation which he suggests consists of 7 seal judgements, 7 trumpet judgements, and 7 bowls of wrath, and then the Second Coming.
We agree that at the Rapture, the church will be caught up to meet Jesus in the clouds before the Wrath of God is poured out. But commenter combines the Tribulation with the Wrath of God. Let’s look at what Jesus said about the Rapture and when it will occur.
Matthew 24:29-31; 29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven,
{I must break into the passage to point out the timing in context since commenter used the 6th seal of Revelation 6 to indicate it is a Tribulation event. Revelation 6:12-13; 12 I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood. 13 And the stars of heaven fell to the earth. As you are about to see in Jesus' words, He was speaking of a pre-rapture event in time, yet we see the same wording used to describe what I assert is an end of tribulation, beginning of wrath occurrence that will unfold. Jesus just said “…after the tribulation of that time.”}
and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 "Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 "And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Jesus said “immediately after the tribulation of those days. Immediately AFTER. Do we all agree that Jesus said immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days? He said after the Tribulation the elect will be caught up to meet Him in the clouds, not before.
Now look at the same chapter but in the earlier verses of Matthew 24:9-13.
Matthew 24:9-14; 9 "Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name's sake. 10 "And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 "Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 "And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 "But he who endures to the end shall be saved. '14 "And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.
What is the "end" Jesus is referring to? He is speaking about the end of the church age, the age of Grace. When will the church age culminate? When the church is raptured. When will it be raptured? Jesus just said after the Tribulation. Who is Jesus talking to? Believers! He said that the world will hate us, and we will be delivered up to what? TRIBULATION! Guess what the Greek word is that Jesus used? It is thlipsis, the exact same word that John used five times in Revelation. Jesus said we will be persecuted and killed during the Tribulation, but the gospel will continue to be preached. If the church is gone, who is preaching the gospel? If you say that it is people that were not saved before the Rapture, but after, then you are still contradicting Scripture because God said that NO believers would have to endure His wrath and commenter asserts the Tribulation is God's wrath. This is why I stated in the original blog that the doctrine of a pre-tribulation Rapture does not demonstrate an allowance for the escape of Christians who will be saved during the Tribulation. Their theory leaves those Christians behind to endure God’s wrath which is a complete contradiction to the Word that says “…we are not appointed unto wrath.” Nowhere in the Bible does God say, “Only those Christians that are saved prior to the Tribulation will escape God’s wrath. It says ALL believers will escape God’s wrath. And the words of Jesus that I just showed you clearly state that there will be propagation of the gospel during the Tribulation and the Bible emphatically states that Christians will be martyred during the Tribulation. That is why it is imperative, absolutely paramount, to understand that the Tribulation and God’s wrath cannot be the same. They are different and they are separated by the Rapture. The example that commenter used to describe the Tribulation saints cannot be used because John was talking about martyrs before the throne. If they are martyrs, then they can’t be raptured. They are dead. The lie that states that Christians saved during the Tribulation will have to go through the Wrath of God was propagated and fueled by Hollywood. Does anyone believe that what comes out of Hollywood is Scripturally sound. The Left Behind movies are fiction. There is no unexplainable vanishing of the church. That is another lie that contradicts Scripture. The WORD Says, in the twinkling of an eye it will happen. It doesn't say those that are left will not see it happen. That statement, twinkling of an eye, is a description of the speed with which it will happen, not an indication that it will not be perceived by the non-believers left behind. The world will see it and they will mourn. John said so in Revelation 1 and he used the same words that Jesus used in Matthew 24.
Revelation 1:7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.
Matthew 24:29-30; 29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 "Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
How can anyone objectively compare those two verses and not commit to them being the same event? They will mourn because they will realize that they missed their chance to escape God's wrath, the "hour of temptation" that John was talking about in Revelation 3:10 that commenter referred to. Jesus said so also in the same chapter of Matthew that we have been camping out in.
Matthew 24:27-29; 27 "For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 28 "For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together. 29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Jesus said it will be seen just like lightning that stretches across the sky. Where did Jesus say we will gather? He said we will gather where the eagles gather when there is death on the ground. Where do they gather? They circle IN THE AIR and are seen. When did Jesus say this would happen? He said immediately AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS. There will be no opportunity for escape from the Wrath of God after the Rapture and no Christians, none, nada, zilch, will have to endure God’s wrath because we will all be raptured immediately after the Tribulation. That is not in any way a manipulation of the Scriptures. You have to manipulate or bend the Scriptures to convince yourself that it is not in the order I stated. Jesus gave us the sequence entirely in Matthew 24.
Need further proof? Let’s break down two more verses in the same chapter of Matthew. This is Jesus speaking.
Matthew 24:21-22; 21 "For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 "And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake those days will be shortened.
What word did Jesus use in verse 21? Tribulation. What word in Greek did He use? You guessed it, thlipsis. And what did he say about the Tribulation of those days? He said that if the days are not shortened, then the ”elect” would not be saved. Who are the “elect”? WE are! The church is. The Greek word for the elect is eklektos. It means the chosen; choice, select; the best of its kind or class; excellence or preeminent. Does that sound like left-behind Christians that were not willing to surrender to Christ before the Rapture? No, absolutely not. Jesus said the elect. The elect is the church. What time period is Jesus describing? The Great Tribulation. Commenter used the argument that the word "church" is not used after Revelation 4. He did not mention, however, that the first 3 chapters of Revelation were written to the churches and about the churches so of course he used the word for church multiple times. But after chapter 3, John wrote about the things to come, not instructions for the church.
Do you want to see another undeniable straight from the Word certifiable example of my proclamation that Jesus was speaking in Matthew about the Tribulation? This is another bulletproof fact. Commenter agrees that the Trumpet Judgements will occur during the Tribulation. Look at what we just read in Matthew 24:22. It says the days will be shortened. Now, look at what happens at the blowing of the 4th trumpet.
Rev 8:12 Then the fourth angel sounded: And a third of the sun was struck, a third of the moon, and a third of the stars, so that a third of them were darkened. A third of the day did not shine, and likewise the night.
Jesus said the days will be shortened during the Tribulation and if they weren't, then no flesh would be saved. John wrote that at the blowing of the 4th trumpet, a third of the day and a third of the night did not shine. THE DAYS WERE SHORTENED! How cool is that? This evidence clearly demonstrates that the church, the body of Christ will be present for the Tribulation because Jesus said the "elect" will be present when this happens.
Let's look at the Greek word for church. It is ekklēsia. In this context it means an assembling of Christians gathered for worship. Do you notice anything familiar about the Greek word for church? I'll give you a hint. You've seen another Greek word that looks similar because it has the same root beginning. It is the word eklektos and it means the elect or chosen or in this case the body of believers. The word is used differently because in the first 4 chapters of Revelation, John was addressing specific churches, not the church as a whole. In Matthew, Jesus was referring to the entire body of believers, not just specific churches. The root word ek means out of or picked out from or chosen. Both words represent God's chosen or elect. So, the claim that the church is not mentioned after chapter 4 is incorrect. The church, the body of Christ, is referred to corporately, but not individually.
I have had people argue that Jesus was not referring to THE GREAT TRIBULATION here, just tribulation. My response? What did Jesus say about the very tribulation He was speaking about? "For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.” So, if you want to take your stand on the idea that Jesus was talking about a separate tribulation, you are saying that tribulation will be worse than the Great Tribulation, where God’s wrath will be poured out according to you because you believe the Tribulation is the same as the Wrath of God. Wow! That is a lot of conjecture. I just thought myself dizzy.
Do you see how teaching that the church will be raptured before the Great Tribulation COMPLETELY contradicts what the Word of God says. It is an impossibility if you look at the Scriptures in there entirety. I know how hard it is to let go of deeply ingrained beliefs because I struggled with letting go of these same beliefs. But I studied Revelation, deep study, for 18 months trying to manipulate the Word of God to match what I was taught and believed and I was vexed. But there are way too many assumptions, conjectures, and outright contradictions to the Word in the doctrine of a pre-tribulation rapture of the church. You have to make countless exceptions and concessions to the unchangeable and infallible Word of God. In the scriptures above, Jesus said the “elect” will endure the greatest tribulation in history and in the future. He cannot be wrong, nor can He lie.
Commenter’s next assertion: 5. The “Tribulation Saints” Are Not the Church. Commenter used these as his talking points:
The argument above falsely assumes that believers in the Tribulation must be the same group as the Church. However:
1. Revelation 7:14 (KJV)
“These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.”
• This group comes to faith during the Tribulation—they are not part of the pre-Tribulation Church.
2. Revelation 13:7 (KJV)
“And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them.”
• If these are the same saints as the Church, it contradicts Matthew 16:18 where Jesus says, “the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.”
RESPONSE:
I demonstrated earlier how the Tribulation saints of Revelation 7:14 are the same martyrs of the fifth seal and the martyrs of Revelation 14. I am making the claim that Christians will be martyred by the beast. I agree with commenter that in Revelation 7:14, John was writing about those who will be killed by the Antichrist during the Tribulation. But commenter is undermining his own argument because he stated that believers are NOT appointed unto wrath and then also states that Christians will be present to endure God's wrath during the Tribulation. You can’t have it both ways. It is impossible to both escape God's wrath and go through God's wrath. Commenter claims it is during the Tribulation that these saints are martyred, and they will be. He is correct. But commenter also believes that the Tribulation is PART of the Wrath of God. That means that these Christian martyrs are subject to the Wrath of God, and that contradicts the Word that says NO CHRISTIAN WILL HAVE TO ENDURE WRATH. Escape from wrath for all believers is the very foundation of commenter's argument for a pre-tribulation church rapture, but then he states Christians will be present to endure the Tribulation that he says is part of God's wrath. If they are martyred, according to commenter’s definition of the Tribulation which he says is the Wrath of God, then they experience the Wrath of God.
Do you see the conflict? You cannot justify the claim that no believers will endure wrath but also claim believers will endure wrath. Commenter is incorrectly assuming that the martyrs described in Revelation 7 are in the presence of God after the Rapture, but John was writing about what will happen DURING the Tribulation. They were being martyred. They are there in spirit only, not yet having their glorified bodies. Let's break down the verse commenter offered.
Revelation 7:14 And I said to him, "Sir, you know." So he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
I want to look at the Greek word for come out. It is erchomai. It means to come from one place to another; used of persons arriving and those returning. It is a active verb. They are coming out. John saw the number growing. He didn't see the tribulation saints that "came out" of the Tribulation. He saw them "coming out" of the Tribulation. That is why John wrote this next verse.
Revelation 7:9-10; 9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10 and crying out with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation [belongs] to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!"
The above passage says the number of those he saw coming out of the Tribulation no one could number. How is that possible? Isn't heaven supposed to be a place where we are just like Jesus? Do you mean to tell me that we won't be able to count people? That is a huge descension in intelligence. No, that is not what John meant. He was stating, that as he watched, the number was growing and not complete. That is why John goes on to write about theses same saints being instructed to have patience until the Tribulation was over.
Paul wrote:
2 Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.
They are absent from their bodies, and they are crying out for vengeance from God. Paul also wrote concerning the Rapture:
1 Corinthians 15:52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
And he wrote:
Thessalonians 4:14-18; 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive [and] remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
Are the above two passages the same or not the same? They are the same. But commenter makes the claim that the "trumpet of God" is not the "last trumpet." But these two verses are describing the exact same event. That would mean the trumpet of God is the last trumpet. Paul wrote that at the last trumpet we will be raised incorruptible. And he wrote that Christ will bring with Him those that die BEFORE us. And Paul wrote that we, the church, who are ALIVE and REMAIN, will be called up and receive our glorified bodies at the SAME TIME as the dead in Christ at the Rapture at the sound of the LAST TRUMPET.
The Tribulation saints that John wrote about in Revelation 7 are the same ones John was describing in Revelation 14. Yes, they are dressed in white robes. White robes symbolize righteousness. Everybody in heaven is made righteous by Jesus' sacrifice. The spirits of the saints that have gone on to be with the Lord are not wondering around heaven naked. They are wearing white robes. They are not invisible spirits or John would not have seen them. But they do not yet have their gloried bodies because the Tribulation is ongoing. That is why they are told to wait and rest. They are to wait until the culmination of the Tribulation, when the body of Christ is Raptured at the last trumpet. That is written in Revelation 14.
Revelation 14:14-17; 14 Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and on the cloud sat [One] like the Son of Man, having on His head a golden crown, and in His hand a sharp sickle. 15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, "Thrust in Your sickle and reap, for the time has come for You to reap, for the harvest of the earth is ripe." 16 So He who sat on the cloud thrust in His sickle on the earth, and the earth was reaped. 17 Then another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
Paul, decades before John, wrote that we would be raptured and meet Jesus in the clouds. John, in the verses above, is speaking of the same event. “Reap the harvest of the earth” and "He who sat on the cloud looked like the Son of Man" are the same person and event. That is Jesus. Paul and John both wrote about the Rapture. Jesus said we would be gathered in the air where the eagles gather. Jesus said we would meet Him in the clouds immediately after the Tribulation. These are all the same event. What did John write just prior to this? He wrote:
Revelation 14:9-13; 9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives [his] mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 "he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation.
Again, I need to break into this passage to point out an obvious contradiction to the Tribulation being part of the Wrath of God. Who is the Holy Spirit warning here? He is warning everyone going through the Tribulation. People will have to receive or reject the mark of the beast during the Tribulation. I believe we can all agree on that. Commenter adamantly insists that the Tribulation is part of the Wrath of God. How then, does it make any sense that the Holy Spirit would give this warning to people who are in the Tribulation if the penalty for taking the mark is you will have to endure the Wrath of God which teachers of a pre-tribulation rapture claim is the Tribulation? That doesn't make any logical sense. How can you threaten someone with what they are already going through? How can the punishment be the Wrath of God if they are already experiencing the Wrath of God? That is the errancy in claiming the Tribulation is the Wrath of God. The Holy Spirit plainly states that if you take the mark of the beast, then you will endure the Wrath of God. That is word for word in verse 10. But according to commenter’s assertion that the Tribulation and the Wrath of God are the same, those people would ALREADY be in the Wrath of God because this occurs during the Tribulation. That is why the Tribulation CANNOT be the same as the Wrath of God. God gives warning to everybody during the Tribulation not to take the mark or they will be subject to the Wrath of God. IT HAS TO BE 2 SEPARATE EVENTS ACCORDING TO THE WORD OF GOD AND NO AMOUNT OF CONJECTURE CAN DISPUTE THAT BASED ON THIS PASSAGE ALONE.
He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 "And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name." 12 Here is the patience of the saints; here [are] those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. 13 Then I heard a voice from heaven saying to me, "Write: 'Blessed [are] the dead who die in the Lord from now on.' " "Yes," says the Spirit, "that they may rest from their labors, and their works follow them."
John wrote about the tribulation saints and He encouraged them to be patient. That was verse 12. A few verses later, John wrote that Jesus sat on a cloud and harvested the earth. What did He harvest? ALL BELIEVERS. And how do we know it was only believers? Let’s look at the following verses.
Revelation 14:17-20; 17 Then another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. 18 And another angel came out from the altar, who had power over fire, and he cried with a loud cry to him who had the sharp sickle, saying, "Thrust in your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth, for her grapes are fully ripe." 19 So the angel thrust his sickle into the earth and gathered the vine of the earth, and threw [it] into the great winepress of the wrath of God. 20 And the winepress was trampled outside the city, and blood came out of the winepress, up to the horses' bridles, for one thousand six hundred furlongs.
What happened after One like the Son of Man sitting on the clouds harvested the earth? There was a second harvest, but not by Jesus. This one was conducted by angels. Who did they harvest? Those that took the mark of the beast or worshipped his image. That is why they were thrown into what? THE GREAT WINEPRESS OF THE WRATH OF GOD. Two separate harvests. Jesus harvests the church after the Tribulation and that is why warning was given during the Tribulation. Jesus said the gospel will be preached during the Tribulation. The Word states that Christians are not subject to God's wrath, so the church has to be raptured after the first harvest. Then the Wrath of God will be unleashed with the Seven Bowls of Wrath culminating with the Battle of Armageddon. Then the second harvest of those that took the mark will happen after Armageddon at the Second Coming of Christ.
Commenter made this claim:
- The Church is removed before this persecution happens.
RESPONSE:
I showed you with scripture, not assumption or conjecture, that commenters claims contradict what Jesus said, what Paul said, and what John said. And keep in mind, the words of all 3 had the same origin, the Holy Spirit. The gospel will be preached during the Tribulation. That means believers will be present. All believers are part of the church and the Word states that no believers will endure the Wrath of God. Therefor, the Tribulation in no way fathomable, can be part of the Wrath of God. The Bible cannot contradict the Bible. If only one verse is inaccurate, none of the Bible can be believed.
1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
This verse was written immediately after Paul wrote about the Rapture. That passage is in 1 Thessalonians 4. If Paul wanted to imply that the Rapture he described in chapter 4 is only for believers that will be raptured before the Tribulation, then would not Paul have maybe at least mentioned in the next several verses before he said that believers are not appointed to wrath, that the exception will be believers that get saved after the pre-tribulation rapture of the church. Wouldn't there be some distinction? Is there any caveat in the above verse written by Paul who wrote multiple times about the Rapture? Is there any exclusion or inclusion of a specific kind of protection from wrath that a Christian will be privy to based on when they get saved? No, there is not. Let's put the end of 1 Thessalonians 4 together with the beginning of 1 Thessalonians 5.
1 Thessalonians 4:15-18; 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive [and] remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words. 1 Thessalonians 5:1 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night.
{I have to break in here again to tie these same words to Revelation. Revelation 16 is the chapter that describes the Seven Bowls of Wrath, the Wrath of God. Look at the verse that the Holy Spirit inserted in there that seems to come from left field. I struggled with the placement of this verse FOREVER. In fact, I did not receive the revelation of why the Holy Spirit placed it here until I was responding to commenter. Commenter's comments caused me to dig even deeper and I received new revelation because he challenged my assertions. Commenter did the right thing. We are to test everything against the Word, and he is just trying to piece it together like the rest of us.
Revelation 16:14-17; 14 For they are spirits of demons, performing signs, [which] go out to the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. 15 "Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed [is] he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame." 16 And they gathered them together to the place called in Hebrew, Armageddon. 17 Then the seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and a loud voice came out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, "It is done!"
John was writing about the wrath and then out of nowhere, Jesus makes a statement that doesn't even seem to fit. John stops and Jesus steps in and says, "I'm coming as a thief" and then John picks up where he left off, talking about the end of the wrath. It's almost like Jesus wrote that in when John wasn't looking. LOL. What did Jesus say in Revelation 16, the chapter that describes the Seven Bowls of Wrath? He is coming as a thief. When did He say He would do that? At the end of the wrath. Now place the above passage from Revelation 16 next to 1 Thessalonians 4. (This is so cool!)
1Thessalonians 4:15-18; 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive [and] remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words. 1 Thessalonians 5:1-2; 1 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night.
Do you see it? John was writing about a time nearing the end of the wrath and Jesus steps in and says he is going to come like a thief in the night. Paul wrote that there will be a Rapture when we will be called up to meet Jesus in the clouds. Then Paul says, I'm summarizing, the things that will follow, we don't need to be concerned with. Why not you ask? Because, we will not be part of the "day of the Lord." That day will come like a thief in the night. Jesus said in Revelation 16, the chapter concerning the Wrath of God, that He would return after that. Paul wrote, after the Rapture, there will be times and seasons that we don't need to be concerned with. What happens after the Rapture? The Wrath of God. What did Paul say would happen after those times and seasons? Jesus will return like a thief in the night. That is why Jesus snuck that statement in there. He was letting us know the Day of the Lord will happen at the end of the Wrath of God just like Paul wrote. I LOVE THE WORD OF GOD! IT IS SO COOL!
Paul called Jesus' return the "Day of the Lord." Paul is describing the Second coming of Christ. John wrote about the exact same "Day of the Lord" and said it will happen at the end of the Wrath. In both places, the Holy Spirit used the same metaphor. Why would he do that if it is not the same day? He would not. Jesus was referring to the time of Wrath when He said, "I come as a thief.". Paul said the same thing about Jesus returning. Paul said He would come as a thief in the night. How many times will Jesus come as a thief in the night? Once. So lets get back to Thessalonians to bring this evidence full circle.}
3 For when they say, "Peace and safety!" then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape.
The people that both John and Paul were writing about are people subject to the the Wrath of God just before the final bowl. So the ONLY people present can be unbelievers. Please tell me you see that in the Word? John can't be describing Tribulation Saints, because we know they escape the Wrath of God because Paul said that believers will not have to be concerned about the day that Jesus returns as a thief in the night because we are not appointed unto wrath. (I know that is a run-on sentence but I couldn't stop my fingers.) So, when did they escape if they were left behind in a pre-tribulation rapture? It is an impossibility in any stretch of interpretation of the Scriptures. You cannot be present for wrath if the Word says you will not be present for wrath.
4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.
Paul again reiterates that believers will not be overtaken in the Day of Wrath. He said believers will not be subject to the darkness.
5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness. 6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others [do], but let us watch and be sober. 7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk are drunk at night. 8 But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and [as] a helmet the hope of salvation. 9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him. 11 Therefore comfort each other and edify one another, just as you also are doing.
Do you see how the Day of the Lord is His Wrath and return. Paul said there is going to be a rapture where the dead in Christ rise, then we meet Jesus with them in the air. Then Paul said there will be a day of the Lord when Jesus will come as a thief but you don't have to be concerned about that day because you are not appointed unto wrath." I summarized. Again, Paul makes no distinction between a pre-tribulation raptured believer and a "left behind" believer. There is only one kind of believer. Those of us who are alive and remain go through the Tribulation. We get raptured at the conclusion of the Tribulation. Then the unbelievers that missed the boat will experience God's wrath when the "Day of the Lord" will overtake them like a thief and Paul says, "You believer do not have to be concerned about that day for you are not appointed unto wrath."
The Rapture is for all Christians. God cannot lie nor will He have to go back and say, “I meant to write in there that the only Christians that will not have to endure My wrath are the ones that are raptured prior to the Tribulation. Sorry I forgot to add that caveat. My bad. All you others are out of luck."
Commenter made this assertion: 2.
Revelation 13:7 (KJV) “And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them.”
• If these are the same saints as the Church, it contradicts Matthew 16:18 where Jesus says, “the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.”
RESPONSE:
The beast absolutely overcomes the Tribulation saints and that has absolutely nothing to do with Matthew 16:18. That is why they are called martyrs. It has nothing to do with the verse about the gates of hell not prevailing against the church. Jesus, in the context of that verse, was affirming to His disciples that on the declaration that Jesus is the Son of the Living God, His church would be built and hell can't stop it. It didn't and it never will. That verse has nothing to do with martyrs. If it did, then hell already prevailed against the church because there has been countless past martyrs and there will continue to be Christians martyrs through the culmination of the Tribulation. Building the church has nothing to do with Christians being martyred.
Matthew 16:16-18; 16 Simon Peter answered and said, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." 17 Jesus answered and said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed [this] to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18 "And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.
In Matthew 24, Jesus said the elect will endure the greatest tribulation the world will ever see. He did not say they would endure wrath. No Christians can be subject to the Wrath of God according to the Word of God. So, if you believe that the Tribulation is the same as the Wrath of God, stating that the church will be raptured before the Great Tribulation is a complete apostasy to Jesus’ own words. People will be saved during the Tribulation. If the Tribulation includes the Wrath of God, then those Christians will have to endure God’s wrath and that would be a contradiction of His Word which we all agree is impossible.
My friend, I know what you are feeling. I fought the Holy Spirit for over a year because I was certain what I was taught was Biblical. It was not. I finally surrendered. When I did, the Holy Spirit downloaded all these Scriptures and insights on me. Believe me, I could not put these verses together on my own. Only He who wrote them could.
John 16:13 "However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own [authority], but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come.
Commenter’s last declaration: 6. The Biblical “Last Trumpet” Is Not the Seventh Trumpet in Revelation
The argument claims that the Rapture happens at the seventh trumpet in Revelation. However:
• 1 Corinthians 15:52 (KJV): “In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.”
• The last trumpet Paul speaks of is not the seventh trumpet of Revelation.
• Paul wrote 1 Corinthians decades before John wrote Revelation—he was referring to the trumpet of God (1 Thess. 4:16), not a judgment trumpet.
RESPONSE:
Again, there is not a single verse in the Bible that says Paul was not talking about the 7th trumpet that John wrote about and I showed you in Revelation 11 that John wrote that the last trumpet would blow and then the wrath would come. I also showed you how Paul used the phrase "the trumpet of God" in one passage, and the "last trumpet" in another passage and both passages were describing the exact same event. And I showed you in Revelation 11, that at the 7th trumpet, the last trumpet, the church will be raptured, the believers will receive reward, the dead will be left behind, and the dead will endure the wrath. That was the exact sequence John described in Revelation 11. There is absolutely no way you can look at those passages together and make the statement that Paul's last trumpet cannot be John's last trumpet. If you can, you are not looking at the Word of God objectively; you are bound to strongly held convictions that cannot be Scripturally proven without changing words in God's Word to fit your beliefs. Again, commenter is using opinion only, not Scriptural evidence. If Paul was referring to a different “LAST” trumpet, what were the trumpets that preceded Paul’s last trumpet? There is no mention of ANY other trumpets. And if Paul wrote that we will be raptured at the “LAST” trumpet and he was not referring to the 7th trumpet of the Seven Trumpet Judgements, then Paul was wrong in his claim because there will be 7 trumpets during the Tribulation. How can Paul accurately state the trumpet he was referring to is the last one if there are seven more after the last trumpet he was referring to? That again contradicts what the Holy Spirit inspired Paul and John to write. There is not more than one Holy Spirit and He doesn't forget what He said. He would not tell Paul to say, “the last trumpet” and it be followed by 7 more trumpets. Paul would be inaccurate under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, and we all know that is not possible. Making the claim that it can't be the same trumpet and not giving Scripture to support that claim makes that claim opinion only.
The Bible must support the Bible without errors or inaccuracies. The Bible says what it says. I have pointed out numerous holes in the doctrine of the church rapture prior to the Tribulation using Scripture only. I did not change any words or use any verses out of context. Instead, I used God's exact words to refute the false teachings of a pre-tribulation raptured church. I let God's words speak for themselves without changing or stretching any of His words. I presented the Scriptures as God recorded them without interference of my biases. I prayed that I would present my evidence to commenter in a loving way and if I came across aggressively or harsh, that was not my intention. I started this blog for this very reason, to study the confusing passages with other word-hungry believers. Commenter's comments are EXACTLY what I was hoping to illicit from my readers. In fact, this conversation with commenter opened my eyes to more revelation in the Word that I wish I had written in the book.
I have demonstrated that the confusion of the events of Revelation was birthed in combining the Tribulation with the Wrath of God. They are not the same. If you can wrap your mind around the truth, that the Tribulation and the Wrath of God are not the same, and that the Seven Seals are NOT judgements in themselves, but a summary of what John beheld as Jesus broke the seals, opened the book, and exposed the contents, you will realize that the book of Revelation was not given to us so that we would have to guess and use conjecture to understand it. It was given to us to do exactly what God purposed for it to do; to reveal to us what we are to expect at the end of the age. The first verse of Revelation tells us that.
Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants--things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified [it] by His angel to His servant John,
I love you, Brother. I look forward to meeting you in glory where one of us will smile and say, “I told you so.” Hallelujah! See you there (after the Tribulation.)😊 And to everyone else that wandered onto this page with a misunderstanding of Revelation or no understanding at all, don’t take my word for it. Seek the truth for yourself. Try to stay away from commentaries where you are only given somebody else's opinion. Ask the Holy Spirit to guide you into all truth. Don’t just read His Word, meditate on it. He will reveal to you the truth of what The WORD Says. And if you still have unanswered questions, I recommend a book called Wrong All Along: Revelation Revisited. It can be found on Amazon and every other book retail network. (Another shameless plug.)
I hope this helps. Jesus loves you!
Ps… This message is for those of you reading this blog who have not read the book. Just reading this blog is not enough to understand all of Revelation. Get the book. There is so many answers in it.
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Comments
From the author's blog post, it is evident that they do not place the rapture in a single, definitive location. Instead, they propose multiple possibilities and, in doing so, contradict themselves on the exact timing of the rapture. Here’s a breakdown of their inconsistencies and contradictions:
1. Multiple Suggested Timings for the Rapture
The author proposes several different and contradictory placements for the rapture:
A. Around the Sixth Seal (Revelation 6:12-17)
• The author quotes Revelation 6:16-17 to argue that God’s wrath begins at the sixth seal, stating:
“Revelation 6:16-17 is the same event that John wrote about in Revelation 16.”
• They then argue that, since 1 Thessalonians 5:9 says believers are not appointed to wrath, the rapture must happen before this event, stating:
“The sixth seal was opened and to John was revealed events associated with God’s wrath after the Rapture.”
• This strongly implies a rapture before or at the sixth seal.
B. Before the Trumpet Judgments (Revelation 8)
• Despite previously implying a sixth-seal rapture, the author later claims:
“The Tribulation does not begin UNTIL the first trumpet of the Seven Trumpet Judgements is blown.”
• If the tribulation begins with the first trumpet, and the church is removed before the tribulation, then the rapture must occur before the first trumpet—which contradicts their earlier placement at the sixth seal.
C. At the Seventh Trumpet (Revelation 11:15-19)
• The author also insists that the seventh trumpet is the “last trumpet” of 1 Corinthians 15:52, saying:
“The 7th trumpet was blown and then the wrath came.”
• They reinforce this claim by writing:
“The Seven Trumpet Judgements are the Tribulation and the seventh trumpet is the last trumpet. We will be raptured at the last trumpet.”
• But if the rapture happens at the seventh trumpet, then believers must endure the trumpet judgments, contradicting their previous statement that the church must be removed before the trumpets.
D. Before the Bowl Judgments (Revelation 16)
• The author argues that God’s wrath is distinct from the tribulation, stating:
“The Tribulation and the Wrath of God are not the same event.”
• If the church is raptured before the wrath, and the wrath begins with the bowl judgments, then the rapture must occur before the bowls—yet another contradiction.
• This is further complicated when the author says:
“The Seven Bowls of Wrath will be poured out, according to what we just learned in verse 18 that states that right after the blowing of the seventh trumpet, will include destroying those that destroy the earth, wrath that according to verse 18 will occur after the last trumpet because the church was just raptured just before the 7 bowls of Wrath that are going to be poured out.”
• If the rapture happens just before the bowls, why did they previously argue that it happens at the seventh trumpet?
________________________________________
2. Contradictions in Their View
The major contradictions in the author's arguments include:
A. When Exactly is the Rapture?
The author moves the rapture around throughout the post:
• Before the trumpets:
“The Tribulation does not begin UNTIL the first trumpet… The calamities start with the trumpets, not the breaking of any seals.”
• At the seventh trumpet:
“The 7th trumpet was blown and then the wrath came.”
• Before the bowls:
“The church was just raptured just before the 7 bowls of Wrath.”
These statements cannot all be true. If the rapture is before the trumpets, then it cannot be at the seventh trumpet or before the bowls.
B. Are the Seals Part of the Tribulation or Not?
• The author claims:
“The seals are NOT judgements in themselves.”
• However, they also claim that the sixth seal is when God’s wrath begins, saying:
“The sixth seal was opened and to John was revealed events associated with God’s wrath after the Rapture.”
• If the seals aren’t judgments, how can the sixth seal mark the beginning of God’s wrath?
• If God’s wrath begins at the sixth seal, why suggest the rapture happens before the trumpets or before the bowls instead?
C. Is the "Last Trumpet" of 1 Corinthians 15:52 the Seventh Trumpet of Revelation?
• The author insists that the "last trumpet" of 1 Corinthians 15:52 is the seventh trumpet of Revelation 11, saying:
“The last trumpet is the last trumpet. At the blowing of the last trumpet, we will be raptured and then the wrath will come.”
• However, this ignores the fact that Paul wrote Corinthians decades before John wrote Revelation. The early church would have had no concept of the “seventh trumpet” when Paul wrote about the “last trumpet.”
• If the rapture happens at the seventh trumpet, why does the author also suggest that the rapture happens before the first trumpet?
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D. Are There Multiple Raptures?
• The author acknowledges a pre-tribulation rapture for the 144,000, stating:
“I say for the church because there is a pre-tribulation rapture for the 144,000. The Word makes that clear in Revelation 7 and 14.”
• However, they argue for a post-tribulation rapture for the rest of the church, saying:
“The Seven Trumpet Judgements are the Tribulation and the seventh trumpet is the last trumpet. We will be raptured at the last trumpet.”
• This suggests multiple raptures, which is not supported anywhere in Scripture.
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3. Conclusion: The Author Contradicts Themselves
🚨 Yes, the author contradicts themselves by placing the rapture in multiple locations:
• At the sixth seal? → “The sixth seal was opened and to John was revealed events associated with God’s wrath after the Rapture.”
• Before the trumpets? → “The Tribulation does not begin UNTIL the first trumpet.”
• At the seventh trumpet? → “The 7th trumpet was blown and then the wrath came.”
• Before the bowls? → “The church was just raptured just before the 7 bowls of Wrath.”
By failing to remain consistent, the author weakens their argument against a pre-tribulation rapture. Their contradictions show uncertainty about when the rapture happens in their own framework.
A pre-tribulation rapture is the only view that remains consistent with:
✔️ The doctrine of imminence (Matthew 24:36, 1 Thessalonians 5:2-4).
✔️ A distinction between Israel and the Church (Daniel 9:24-27, Jeremiah 30:7).
✔️ The removal of the restrainer before the Antichrist is revealed (2 Thessalonians 2:6-7).
✔️ The absence of the Church in Revelation’s Tribulation chapters (Revelation 6-18).
🔹 The blog author’s inconsistencies show that their post-tribulation argument is not well-grounded in Scripture, making the pre-tribulation rapture the most biblically consistent position.
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Let’s walk through the 144,000 Israelites in Revelation using scripture as the foundation to show why they are sealed and left on earth rather than raptured.
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1. The 144,000 Are Sealed for Protection on Earth, Not Raptured
Revelation 7:1-4 – The Sealing of the 144,000
“After these things I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, on the sea, or on any tree. Then I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God. And he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, saying, ‘Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.’ And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed.” (Revelation 7:1-4)
• The Sealing is Before the Tribulation Begins:
The four angels are instructed to withhold destruction until the 144,000 are sealed. If they were raptured, why would there be a need to seal them for protection?
• They Are Literal Israelites:
Revelation explicitly lists them as being from the twelve tribes of Israel (Revelation 7:5-8). Nowhere does Scripture say they symbolize the Church.
• Why Would They Need to Be Sealed If They Were in Heaven?
o We, the Church, are already sealed by the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 1:13-14), guaranteeing our security in Christ.
o The 144,000 need an additional, unique sealing because they remain on earth during the Tribulation, facing danger from the judgments.
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2. The Purpose of Their Sealing: Protection from God’s Judgments
Revelation 9:3-4 – Protected from the Locusts of the Abyss
“Then out of the smoke locusts came upon the earth. And to them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. They were commanded not to harm the grass of the earth, or any green thing, or any tree, but only those men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads.” (Revelation 9:3-4)
• This is a Clear Indication That the 144,000 Are Still on Earth.
The demonic locusts from the abyss are instructed not to harm those who are sealed (which includes the 144,000).
o If they were raptured, this command would be meaningless.
o They are left on earth and protected from God’s supernatural judgments.
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3. Who Are They? Their Role and Character
Revelation 14:1-5 – The 144,000 Stand with the Lamb on Mount Zion
“Then I looked, and behold, a Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His Father's name written on their foreheads. And I heard a voice from heaven, like the voice of many waters, and like the voice of loud thunder. And I heard the sound of harpists playing their harps. They sang as it were a new song before the throne, before the four living creatures, and the elders; and no one could learn that song except the hundred and forty-four thousand who were redeemed from the earth. These are the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. They are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These were redeemed from among men, being firstfruits to God and to the Lamb. And in their mouth was found no deceit, for they are without fault before the throne of God.” (Revelation 14:1-5)
• They Are Physically Present on Earth During the Tribulation
o They stand with the Lamb on Mount Zion, a location on earth.
o They are described as being redeemed from among men, implying they were selected from people still on earth during the Tribulation.
o If they were raptured earlier, why would they need to stand on Mount Zion later?
• They Are Virgins and Faultless
o “Not defiled with women” (symbolizing purity).
o No deceit is found in their mouths (moral and spiritual integrity).
o They follow the Lamb wherever He goes (faithful disciples).
• They Are Firstfruits to God
o This means they are set apart for a special purpose, possibly as witnesses for Christ during the Tribulation.
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4. Their Role During the Tribulation
While their exact mission is not fully detailed, their sealing strongly suggests they serve as witnesses or messengers of God during the Great Tribulation.
• Matthew 24:14 – The Gospel Preached to the Whole World
“And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.”
o Could the 144,000 be fulfilling this prophecy, evangelizing the world during the end times?
• Isaiah 43:10 – Israel as God’s Witnesses
“You are My witnesses, says the LORD, And My servant whom I have chosen.”
o The Jewish nation has always been called to bear witness to God—perhaps the 144,000 are a restored remnant fulfilling this mission.
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5. Contrast: The Church is Already Sealed by the Holy Spirit
Ephesians 1:13-14 – The Church’s Sealing
“In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.”
• The Church is Already Sealed for Redemption
o Our sealing is spiritual and eternal, guaranteeing our salvation.
o Unlike the 144,000, we do not need a physical mark to protect us from God’s judgments.
Why Would the 144,000 Need to Be Sealed If They Were in Heaven?
• If the 144,000 were raptured, they would already be safe.
• The very purpose of their sealing is to remain protected on earth—confirming they are not in heaven when they are sealed.
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6. Conclusion: The 144,000 Are Left on Earth, Not Raptured
• They Are Sealed Before the Tribulation Begins (Revelation 7:1-4).
• They Are Protected From God’s Judgments, Including the Locusts of Revelation 9.
• They Stand on Mount Zion on Earth, Not in Heaven (Revelation 14:1).
• They Are a Set-Apart, Holy Remnant of Israelites (Revelation 14:4-5).
• Their Purpose Appears to Be Evangelism or Witnessing During the Tribulation (Matthew 24:14).
• The Church is Already Sealed Spiritually by the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 1:13-14).
💡 Final Question:
Why would God seal the 144,000 for protection if they were already in heaven?
Clearly, they remain on earth during the Tribulation, not raptured before it.
This biblical evidence strongly refutes any claim that the 144,000 are raptured before or during the Tribulation. Instead, they are sealed and protected on earth for a divine purpose during that time.
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The idea that the rapture of the Church happens at or during the Sixth Seal (Revelation 6:12-17) is a position some hold within mid-tribulation or pre-wrath rapture views. However, the timing of the rapture is a subject of debate among scholars, and whether this idea contradicts other parts of the Bible depends on one’s eschatological framework. Let’s examine potential contradictions or supporting evidence.
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1. Examining the Sixth Seal (Revelation 6:12-17)
The Sixth Seal describes:
• A great earthquake.
• The sun darkened and moon turning to blood.
• Stars falling from the sky (possibly a meteor shower or cosmic disturbance).
• The sky receding like a scroll.
• Mountains and islands moved from their places.
• People hiding in fear, recognizing this as the wrath of the Lamb.
Why Some Believe the Rapture Happens Here
• Matthew 24:29-31 – Jesus describes cosmic disturbances ("the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light") before the gathering of the elect.
• 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 – The rapture involves the Lord descending with a trumpet call, which some see as linked to the cosmic signs of the Sixth Seal.
• Revelation 7:9-14 – Immediately after the Sixth Seal, John sees a “great multitude” in white robes in heaven, which some interpret as the raptured Church.
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2. Potential Contradictions
A. The Church is Absent in the Tribulation (If Pre-Trib Rapture is Correct)
• Revelation 3:10 (Jesus to the Philadelphia church) – “I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world.”
o If this means the Church is removed before any seals open, a Sixth Seal rapture contradicts this.
• 1 Thessalonians 5:9 – “God did not appoint us to suffer wrath.”
o If the Seals are God’s wrath, then the Church shouldn’t be there.
B. The Wrath of God Begins Earlier (If Post-Trib Rapture is Correct)
• Some believe wrath begins with the First Seal (Revelation 6:1), meaning a Sixth Seal rapture would be too late for those who believe the Church is removed before wrath starts.
• The Fifth Seal (Revelation 6:9-11) shows Christian martyrs asking when judgment will come, suggesting believers are still on earth suffering before the Sixth Seal.
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C. The Church is Already Seen in Heaven Earlier
• Revelation 4:4 – The 24 elders are present before the seals open, possibly representing the Church.
• If this is the case, the Church was already raptured before the Sixth Seal, contradicting the Sixth Seal rapture view.
D. The Sixth Seal Does Not Explicitly Mention a Gathering
• Revelation 6:15-17 only describes the terror of unbelievers, not a rapture event.
• Revelation 7 does mention a great multitude in heaven, but these are explicitly described as those “coming out of the Great Tribulation” (Revelation 7:14), which could mean they were martyred rather than raptured.
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3. Counterarguments: Why a Sixth Seal Rapture Could Still Fit
• If God’s wrath only starts with the Trumpets, then believers could still be present until the Sixth Seal without contradicting 1 Thessalonians 5:9.
• If the 24 elders do not represent the whole Church but a select group, then the Church’s presence before the Sixth Seal is not necessarily a contradiction.
• If Matthew 24:29-31 refers to the rapture and aligns with the Sixth Seal cosmic signs, then a rapture at this point could be supported.
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Conclusion: Is It a Contradiction?
• Yes, it contradicts Pre-Tribulation views, which place the rapture before the Seals.
• No, it does not contradict Mid-Trib or Pre-Wrath views if wrath only begins later.
• Possibly contradicts Post-Trib views if believers are still on earth for later events.
The key depends on whether one sees the Seals as part of God’s wrath or just the beginning of tribulation leading up to wrath.
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The passage in Matthew 24:29-31 describes cosmic signs, the Son of Man coming on the clouds, a loud trumpet call, and the gathering of the elect. However, whether this refers to the rapture or the Second Coming is a major debate in eschatology. Below are the key views, supporting and conflicting scriptures, and the implications of each interpretation.
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Matthew 24:29-31 (ESV)
“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”
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View 1: Matthew 24:29-31 Describes the Rapture
Supporting Arguments
1. Cosmic Signs Align with Rapture Passages
• 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 – "For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds..."
• 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 – Describes a rapture event with a trumpet at Christ’s coming.
The trumpet in Matthew 24:31 could align with these passages about the rapture.
2. The "Elect" Must Be the Church
• The term "elect" (Greek: eklektos) is used in the New Testament to refer to believers in Christ (e.g., Colossians 3:12, Romans 8:33, Titus 1:1).
• If Jesus is gathering the elect, this suggests a rapture-like event.
3. Matches the "Pre-Wrath" Rapture View
• The phrase "immediately after the tribulation of those days" suggests that this event happens before God's final wrath (which some believe starts with the Trumpet or Bowl judgments in Revelation).
• In Revelation 7:9-14, a "great multitude" suddenly appears in heaven, which some say represents raptured believers.
Conflicting Scriptures
1. The Rapture Is a Secret, Not Public
• 1 Thessalonians 5:2 – The rapture is described as coming like "a thief in the night," whereas Matthew 24:30 describes a public event where “all the tribes of the earth will mourn.”
• 1 Corinthians 15:52 – The rapture is in "a moment, in the twinkling of an eye," while Matthew 24 seems more drawn out.
2. The Church Was Already Raptured Earlier (If Pre-Trib Is Correct)
• Revelation 4:1 – Some believe John being "caught up" into heaven represents the rapture before the tribulation.
• If the Church is already in heaven, why would Matthew 24 describe a rapture after the tribulation?
Implications If This Passage Describes the Rapture
1. Refutes a Pre-Tribulation Rapture – Since the gathering happens after tribulation, this would mean the Church goes through some or all of the tribulation.
2. Supports Pre-Wrath or Post-Trib Rapture Views – It fits these models where believers endure part or all of the tribulation before being taken up.
3. Suggests the Rapture and Second Coming Are One Event – If true, the rapture happens when Christ visibly returns, not as a separate earlier event.
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View 2: Matthew 24:29-31 Describes the Second Coming, Not the Rapture
Supporting Arguments
1. The Context of Matthew 24 is About Christ’s Final Return
• Matthew 24:27 – "For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man."
• Matthew 24:30 – “They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds.”
• The entire Olivet Discourse (Matthew 24-25) focuses on Christ’s final return, not a sudden secret rapture.
2. “All the Tribes of the Earth Will Mourn”
• In a rapture event, believers would be rejoicing, not mourning.
• Zechariah 12:10 – Prophecy that Israel and the nations will mourn when they see Christ returning.
3. The "Elect" Can Refer to Israel
• Some argue the "elect" here refers to faithful Jews who survive the tribulation, based on Isaiah 45:4 and Romans 11:26 (God’s promises to regather Israel).
• The trumpet in Matthew 24:31 may align with Old Testament regathering prophecies (e.g., Isaiah 27:13).
4. Jesus Sends Angels to Gather the Elect, Not a Personal Call
• In 1 Thessalonians 4:16, Jesus Himself calls believers up.
• In Matthew 24:31, angels do the gathering, suggesting a different event.
Conflicting Scriptures
1. Cosmic Signs Align with Rapture Passages
• The sun darkening and the trumpet blast match rapture descriptions in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 and 1 Corinthians 15:52.
2. "Gathering the Elect" Sounds Like the Rapture
• The word "gather" (Greek: episunagō) is used in 2 Thessalonians 2:1 to refer to the rapture.
Implications If This Passage Describes the Second Coming
1. Supports a Pre-Trib Rapture – If this is Christ’s final return, the rapture must have already happened.
2. Refutes Post-Trib Rapture Views – If this passage does not refer to the rapture, then believers may be taken earlier.
3. Emphasizes the Visible, Triumphant Return of Christ – If this passage is the Second Coming, it highlights Jesus' return to defeat His enemies and establish His kingdom.
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Final Summary: Which Is Correct?
• If Matthew 24:29-31 is the Rapture → The rapture happens after the tribulation, contradicting a Pre-Tribulation view but supporting Pre-Wrath or Post-Tribulation perspectives.
• If Matthew 24:29-31 is the Second Coming → The rapture must have happened earlier, supporting a Pre-Tribulation view.
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The seven-year tribulation timeline, beginning with the Antichrist's peace covenant, is central to understanding the sequence of events in Daniel’s 70th Week (Daniel 9:27) and how it relates to whether Matthew 24:29-31 describes the Rapture or the Second Coming. Below is an analysis of how this timeline interacts with both views.
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1. The 7-Year Tribulation Timeline and Key Events
The seven-year period is based on Daniel 9:27, which states:
“He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven,’ but in the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple, he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.”
Basic Tribulation Breakdown
• Start (Year 1) – Antichrist makes a peace covenant (Daniel 9:27).
• First 3.5 Years – Relative peace but increasing deception (1 Thessalonians 5:3).
• Midpoint (3.5 Years / 42 Months / 1,260 Days):
o Antichrist breaks the covenant.
o The Abomination of Desolation occurs (Matthew 24:15, 2 Thessalonians 2:4).
o Great persecution begins, particularly against Israel and believers (Revelation 13:7).
• Second 3.5 Years (Great Tribulation) – Intense suffering and divine wrath.
• End of the 7 Years – Christ returns to defeat the Antichrist (Revelation 19).
Why This Timeline Matters for Matthew 24
Jesus explicitly references the Abomination of Desolation (Matthew 24:15) as a sign to flee, which suggests that Matthew 24 describes events after the midpoint of the tribulation. If the rapture occurs at the Sixth Seal (Matthew 24:29-31), this would place it somewhere between the midpoint and the end.
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2. How the 7-Year Timeline Affects the "Rapture View" of Matthew 24:29-31
If Matthew 24:29-31 is the Rapture, then:
1. Believers Must Be Present During the Tribulation (at least up to the Sixth Seal)
o Since Matthew 24:29 happens after tribulation, this means the Church is not raptured before the Antichrist is revealed.
o This contradicts Pre-Tribulation rapture theology (2 Thessalonians 2:3 states the "man of sin" must be revealed first).
2. Fits a Pre-Wrath or Post-Tribulation Timeline
o The rapture would take place after the tribulation but before God’s final wrath (possibly before the Trumpet or Bowl judgments).
o Matthew 24:31 describes a trumpet call, which may correspond with the Seventh Trumpet in Revelation (Revelation 11:15), an event some associate with the rapture.
3. Potential Sequence of Events (if Matthew 24:29-31 is the rapture):
o Year 1-3.5 → Peace covenant (Antichrist rises).
o Midpoint → Abomination of Desolation (Antichrist demands worship).
o Year 3.5-6 → Persecution & tribulation (Mark of the Beast enforced, believers martyred).
o Year 6-7 → Sixth Seal occurs, sun darkens, moon turns to blood (Matthew 24:29).
o Matthew 24:31 Rapture occurs → Believers taken before final wrath.
o Trumpet & Bowl Judgments happen.
o End of Year 7 → Christ’s visible Second Coming (Revelation 19).
Key Support for This View
• Matthew 24:29 – "Immediately after the tribulation of those days", implying a post-tribulation gathering.
• 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 & Matthew 24:31 both reference a trumpet blast and gathering of the elect, making them appear as the same event.
• Revelation 7:14 – The “great multitude” seen in heaven could be the raptured believers after the tribulation.
Key Conflicts for This View
• 1 Thessalonians 5:9 says believers are not destined for God’s wrath, yet a post-trib rapture means they endure much of the tribulation.
• Revelation 4:1 is often cited as the rapture (Pre-Trib view), but this view ignores it.
• The rapture is described as sudden (1 Corinthians 15:52, "in the twinkling of an eye"), but Matthew 24:29-31 seems dramatic and prolonged.
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3. How the 7-Year Timeline Affects the "Second Coming View" of Matthew 24:29-31
If Matthew 24:29-31 describes the Second Coming (not the rapture), then:
1. The Church Must Be Raptured Before This Event
o If the elect gathered in Matthew 24:31 are surviving believers on Earth (or faithful Jews), the Church must have been raptured before the tribulation (Pre-Trib view).
o 1 Thessalonians 5:9 supports this, as believers are not meant to endure God’s wrath.
2. Fits a Pre-Trib or Mid-Trib Timeline
o The Church would be taken before the seven years or by the midpoint.
o Those left behind endure the full tribulation until Christ’s final return.
3. Potential Sequence of Events (if Matthew 24:29-31 is the Second Coming):
o Year 1 → Antichrist confirms peace covenant.
o Year 3.5 → Abomination of Desolation.
o Year 3.5-7 → Great Tribulation.
o Year 7 → Final battle (Revelation 19:11-21).
o Matthew 24:29-31 = Christ's visible return & final gathering.
Key Support for This View
• Zechariah 12:10 – The world will "mourn" when they see Christ return, matching Matthew 24:30.
• Revelation 19:11-14 describes Jesus returning in glory, just as Matthew 24:30 does.
• Angels gathering the elect (Matthew 24:31) fits Old Testament regathering prophecies (Isaiah 27:13, Ezekiel 37).
Key Conflicts for This View
• Matthew 24:31 sounds like the rapture, yet this view claims it isn’t.
• The cosmic signs match 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, a passage commonly linked to the rapture.
• If the Church was raptured before this, why does Matthew 24 discuss believers fleeing?
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4. Final Analysis: Does the 7-Year Timeline Clarify the Debate?
If Matthew 24:29-31 is the Rapture:
• The Church is on Earth during the tribulation.
• A Pre-Wrath or Post-Tribulation Rapture makes the most sense.
• It contradicts Pre-Tribulation views.
If Matthew 24:29-31 is the Second Coming:
• The Church is already raptured before the tribulation.
• A Pre-Tribulation Rapture is necessary.
• It aligns with Revelation 19 and Zechariah 12.
The Biggest Issue
The timing of God's wrath is key. If God’s wrath includes the entire tribulation, a post-trib rapture contradicts 1 Thessalonians 5:9. If wrath starts later (Pre-Wrath view), the rapture at Matthew 24:31 could fit.
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